I think you’re both onto something. There’s even a likely network effect where those men who sleep around are even more attractive to potential mates. Not as a rule, of course, but as a contributing factor.
It’s a very destabilizing trend. Not only are these same men being economically disadvantaged, but they’re being socially isolated. Perfect way to increase violent tendencies, drug addition, and so on.
How would that change though. I agree its a problem, but I don't agree its not within the control of those who are not being matched to do something about it. Some arguments:
* dating apps aren't the only way to meet people; you can still meet potential partners at parks/bars/work (Americans love office romances apparantly)
* dating apps do favor the conventionally good looking folks but its also about presentation, which can be gamed and its not a secret how to.
I agree that its a little unfair that the men who are good looking get all the benefits without having to put in any effort. But hasn't that been the case with inherited wealth too?
As someone who is definitely on the "not ugly but also not attractive" demographic, I have ditched dating apps completely.
The focus on the visual to the exclusion of body language and personality chemistry just makes it a bad all around deal. From my experience, naturally meeting girls in the world is a much more pleasant experience.
Smart move in many ways. Think about it - what kind of person goes to quick hookup apps? The one that likes quick hookups. Which is great if you look exactly this and nothing more. Men and women (but frankly, women much more due to many reasons) who behave like this +-consistently, have practically always have some deep unresolved issues, usually from childhood they try (and fail) to compensate for with this behavior. Think about Barney Stinson from HIMYM and his famous focus on 'girls with daddy issues'.
If you look for anything else, like long term happiness, its a very hard find a partner on such platform. Maybe I am naive but I still think this is what most people want in their lives. But it ain't as easy as swiping around - one needs to go out there, make some effort to look attractive, expose oneself to as many potential partners as possible. And have patience, tons of patience.
For my dating age range (28-33) and location, it seems most women I meet through Tinder are after a connection. This is heavily filtered through my selections though. It might also be the case that's the front they show while having tons of hooks up behind the scenes. It's just a really convenient way to meet people.
Virtually all women want a stable relationship, it's just that they want it with the dark and misterious bad boy, not with the average Joe.
It is how women are genetically programmed to be; it is why the Sabines accepted their raping-roman husbands, why Helen left with Paris, it is why Cleopatra accepted to be the mistress of Caesar and Anthony.
It is why women lubricate when they percieve a threatening male, it is why the Stockholm syndrom exists -- because it increases the chances of survival of a woman and her children if she can become the 10th wife of a man who just recently slain all her male relatives.
>* dating apps aren't the only way to meet people; you can still meet potential partners at parks/bars/work (Americans love office romances apparantly)
Think about doing a job search. You could find a potential employer at a park/bar/whatever, but it's a lot more efficient to go to a job site where people are actively looking to employ you. It's similar for dating. It's definitely possible to meet someone to date in the real world. It's just a lot less efficient than doing so in a space where the only people there are those actively looking for the same thing you are.
Plus, people typically go to the same bars/parks and have the same circle of friends. The absolute number of single people will be relatively small and you can go through them relatively quickly. There's also the awkwardness of dealing with failed relationships.
I wouldn't put to much blame on dating apps in general, as the whole category of "dating apps" has become rather large and differentiated. And the more differentiated it becomes, the more I see it reflecting existing social behaviour.
On Tinder a small number of attracive men gets to hook up. But hasn't that always been the case when the objective has been to "hook up"? When you pick someone up for the night at you local bar and have rather free choice, hasn't the choice always rather fallen on the hot guy?
But there is a whole world of other dating services outside of Tinder, that are not focused on hook ups, but rather on finding a partner, and the difference shows!
My a piece of anecdotal evidence:
On Tinder I got ~0 matches - I'd say I'm "average" looking, not "hot" enough for Tinder - but on Bumble I get regular good matches. In contrast one of my "hot" friends has no problems getting matches on Tinder, but when he tried out Bumble his number of matches were just slightly more than mine.
I still prefer dating without apps, and the overreliance on them in my youngish (~25) age group is worrying me a bit, but the world for non-hot men is not as bleak as it's often made out to be.
> There’s even a likely network effect where those men who sleep around are even more attractive to potential mates
Of course, "attractiveness" is exactly this, the amount of partners you can get. We are certainly wired to consider the latter as an indicator of the former. Like a share's value is only marginally determined by its fundamentals, and more by how much is bought by others.
I think this problem will be addressed more and more by mail order brides or something like that for males in more prosperous nations, at least at the point when more men realize that they need to capitalize on their economic situation. The poorer countries are left with huge disenfranchised populations that will not be very friendly in the long term.
I don't think there is a mechanism to restrict that. There are already countless "international" dating sites. You will get a vastly different response than from tinder as a male. Provided you select a prosperous country (your origin) and select you are looking for serious relationships.
Might be helpful for some guy to bolster their confidence. This is extremely superficial of course, so comparable with
tinder.
But: Any advice on safer sex should include "do not marry" in this case :)
There's a sliding scale from mail order brides all the way down to women slightly lower class than the male with something in the middle like travelling to a poor country to meet girls. The third thing is definitely effective and on the rise (and incels are obsessed with it).
Dating a dude that is cool with buying a bride would be profoundly bad idea. His ideas on what he expects from relationship are such that you really really don't want to with him.
I agree to an extend. It is an indecent proposal. You are leveraging your economic position for the dating market, plain and simple.
But from the position of a guy that has few or none experience in dating, this might not be a bad choice.
Especially, as you mentioned, because it is very true that relationships are about expectations and managing those. And starting a relationship with someone who has basically always been in a relationship is very difficult for someone that was not.
Especially if the plan changed that you suddenly want to have a "serious" relationship. That is not very realistic and for the guy it doesn't really make a difference emotionally at this point.
The woman looking for greener pastures actually do have quite high expectations for economic safety, but that would make it more manageable for some guys at least.
And there is still opportunity for love here, and guys having problems with dating should know their options. Everything is allowed in love, right?
Disclaimer: I only ever at least partially defend the use of mail order brides on mondays. damn...
I think the risk there is more for the man than the woman. I don't think there is anything inherently bad in trying to circumvent the natural hierarchies of dating by means of your (unearned) social background. It's always part of the game anyway, and it doesn't mean that you want to "own" somebody or anything like that. But it's naive, as it won't last long in the new social environment. I.e. the beautiful wife will soon discover she has much better possibilities in the new country.
The risk for the wife is that he will turn possessive, controlling and as a result abusive. Because he bought her, he will want to have control over her. She will never be respected partner with equal agency.
The risk is also in sort of men attracted to this proposition. They are literally dangerous ones to date, whether physically or for mental abuse.
Having to run out of abusive marriage sux big time and have long term consequences for women.
I think your assessment is clouded by some strong moral issue you have with the idea of finding a spouse abroad, exploiting a differential in welfare between two countries.
You insist on the idea that the wife has been "bought", and that it implies some sort of dominant/ controlling attitude on the male's part. In fact I would argue that the opposite could be true: men who resort to "mail brides" are simply trying to find their way around a system that puts them at the bottom of the ladder, often exactly because they are not dominant enough. Dominant psychopaths don't need mail order brides, they are often successful and can find plenty of partners anyway.
Also, if we're authorized to draw psychological inferences from these choices: what do you think of women who choose to date (relatively) wealthy foreigners online, refusing to find a partner in their own country? It's not that there is a shortage of males in Ukraine or Brazil or the Philippines. These women are choosing to ignore local partners for the prospect of a life of comforts (because this is the idea you get from foreign media).
So if we inform our psychological insights to our moral biases, who's the psychopath here? The naive loser who thinks he can trick the system and get a partner above his level, or the ambitious girl who shuns her local suitors for the prospect of a wealthy life abroad with a stranger?
And that is the risk she is accommodating in. She could always divorce away before it turns bad and look for other options. That is what the parent comment means "the beautiful wife will soon discover she has much better possibilities in the new country."
Abusive marriages have nothing to do with if they wedded out of mail order or love. Either can turn abusive.
> Because he bought her,
Buying humans is illegal.
> She will never be respected partner with equal agency.
There is never a grain of truth in it except for vastly simplistic generalization.
Abusive relationships have a lot to do with one party believing to be entitled to control the other party. And those who order a bride are in that category. It is not like they would be ordering her for any other reason.
That is simple risk factor evaluation one does when selecting partners. Normaly you guess on small hints, in this case it is pretty easy to see where you stand.
For sex, there is prostitution. This mail oder thing is about other wishes. And plan to be cool with whatever she decides to do is not one of them.
Men are not some robots that us pessimists programmed to turn into all the list of attributes that you just now prescribed when met with so and so situation.
Just because I bought a cat or dog doesn't mean I am going to abuse by feeling entitled and owning it.
With mail order women, women get just the same rights as any other women in marriage. Police would be after me otherwise. It is the responsibility of such women who voluntarily participate as mail order brides to educate themselves of their rights to assert them whenever apposite. Mail order transaction is perfectly legal and has no more abuse risk statistically than other kinds of mainstream marriages.
>It is not like they would be ordering her for any other reason.
Actually plenty said it is like they would be ordering her for other reasons - love, companionship and marriage.
You are again and again drawing premature conclusions like "People who own a kitchen knife are damn sure to be murderers!".
It’s a very destabilizing trend. Not only are these same men being economically disadvantaged, but they’re being socially isolated. Perfect way to increase violent tendencies, drug addition, and so on.